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Talk:Neferpitou/Archive 2
Pitou is male published according to HXH official Databook This data book has been in circulation for years. If you all need cite its better to use that info, however if a new data book has been updated and published then that defeated the purposed of the first official databook. I can provide a cite regarding the page thats says he is a he. and also this amde me motivated to add citations and double check further if anything in the articles mislead people. Riniloves (talk) 18:59, July 29, 2013 (UTC) Could you put the cite down, becuase we should probably put that the databook says his gender. HazeShot (talk) 05:28, July 31, 2013 (UTC) : And if it is not too much asking, a site link with those pages in japanese and english language please (because this translation misinfomation/confusion chaos). Because quoting a book is nice but showing a page scan will be definitive. Thanks in advance. (BelmontsFenrir (talk) 13:19, July 31, 2013 (UTC)) : Replies: : I'm on itRiniloves (talk) 18:30, August 2, 2013 (UTC) : The databook book I am quoting is the''' HxH World official databook'.There are 2 guidebooks out there the first 2001, and the recent released when Chimera Ant is running that time. The one circullating around the net was Chineese raws (ok i got the Japanese raws but due to the WIKIA file and hosting policy I will not put it here and also in consideration of the DMCA law -''pm me if you really want the scans so bad ). You can ask a translator if you want. Unlike before was this released everyone pretty much think before Pitou was female, until it got publised in Japan - if you got the old scans of hxh from Jump you will pretty much see that Togashi has promoted this databook so bad. Almost everyone creating doujin about Kite and Pitou were disappointed. But you cant judge them really on outside appearance. Pitou is basically a cat thats why he has a feline body. Riniloves (talk) 16:41, August 2, 2013 (UTC) *Here is another link for the HXH Manual (if I remmber corectly this maybe from special booklets or pages from WSJ issue if not they can be specials coming from the tankobon). Riniloves (talk) 17:02, August 2, 2013 (UTC) * *Guides to be in cosideration *ハンター協会公式発行ハンターズ and HxH キャラクターズブック World × Character × Blessing : Just have to put this here before I forgot. *Well you could also consider the image on the mangaa were he is jumping and is thinking but Togashi tends to show us on that scene he is naked. I can clearly see no boobs there. Thats the image like the Kurapika cover, thats the confirmation image he is male. Why are you all not using the manga as reference? Does Togashi need to draw them naked all the time for all your happiness contents? *Riniloves (talk) 20:14, August 2, 2013 (UTC) '''''FYI speculations will always be speculations, opinions will always be opinions facts will always be facts. : Hope this will all resolve everything. If there are any changes in the anime, I think it is right to place a header like Anime and Manga Differences in the future.Riniloves (talk) 20:27, August 2, 2013 (UTC) Thanks a lot for being the first person that gives information, however, neither the chinese raws link (took me a while to find my old chinese friend, lol) you posted here and the databook link shows anything about Pitou's gender, I'll PM you for a japanese version scan. Nevertheless was amazing that finally someone showed up some info. Thanks. And about nudity on Japan, we all know that is extremely forbidden so Pitous Naked wasn't gonna show absolutely nothing, because it won't be a penis drawing either lol.(BelmontsFenrir (talk) 22:19, August 2, 2013 (UTC)) : All I can say youre still in speculation/assumption mode which is not valid fact for a wiki. : All I can say is your in denial bob. Then the Kurapika cover showing him half naked makes you in denial as well? You dont know how many scanlators have won that bet when that chapter surface (They certainly are good in comparing a naked woman Silhouette and a male Silhouette) . Sorry but its already closed. Pitou is confirmed male. You have to thank Togashi for that. But anyway how many proof has Togashi gave us? I recall so many: *This chapter when Pitou says boku (male)　僕 (formal)- I have the raws from the tankobon to further check and a legit Japanese person to confirm (and I have a background level 4 in nihonggo for a fact if you had saw some of my sub works your lucky - well that is also a requirement to be able to gain tourist level visa in Japan - as dictated in the embassy - Im still working for the next visa fro my next visits). It is also the chapter where he introduce himself. Well if your complaining "I have seen toboyish female used that" that is the informal way (''I have seen you have argued using that style - 'f my sensei were to check your test papers I dont think you'll pass the proper exams',' ''in exams the right way will be always to use the formal way - '''no offense here'). I should be paid for this -_- ..... *Databook 彼 kare (He) - Ok I already find the magic word for you will you stop? Thanks my Japanese sensei. And my little knowledge. Hope I pass for my next visa. I should be paid for this -_-...... *Silhouette - the link of the chapter I already gave above. Just compare it to a silhouette of a guy and a girl. This is the go signal for the Japanese wiki to change their stand.Well I am also waiting for the anime silhouette. Since that will be the confirmation the anime changes Pitou's gender. Then if that were to happen then in the anime version you can all confirm he is female. Which will be nice to include at the '''Anime and Manga Difference section'. Any thank you for my hard work there? anyone?Riniloves (talk) 14:35, August 3, 2013 (UTC) Alright let me start by saying, this isn't kindergarten, this is a wikia nobody needs to thank you for anything no matter how much you do! Off course any help and good intentions are always appreciated and welcome by the majority here (this differs per wikia) on this wikia. Now on to the main issue and that is the use of kare in the databook. Which is totally non-conclusive but only show a bias towards male. All this page does is refer to him as a he One Time. And it seems to be done in the same way we do it here in the article which is for the flow of the article and in this case the sentence. Databooks are notoriously flawed when it comes to giving us new information, not only are they mostly worked on by assistants but they also aren't but under enough scrutiny before being published. Mistakes happen (like one previously unnamed character being given one name in one datebook and another in two books later). When it comes to databooks the only way to get pure new information from it, is when something is explicitly shown or answered. (when the author answers things directly or shows us look these guys are wearing the same brand clothes or look this ship belongs to this pirate). Many wiki are reluctant to go by anything a databook says and even then mistakes still happen (sabo's death which is the same thing as this not directly stated but only vaguely implied by a line of text). In conclusion this is nothing more then a reference to the character as being a male it is not a statement by the Author saying he is male. Until a databook comes out showing by a ♂ (male symbol) it is male or showing by a ♀ (female symbol) it is female. It's gender remains unconfirmed. Only this or the author directly answering the question "What is Pitou's gender?" is confirmation (fact) we can work with. This is far to unreliably and inconclusive to work with. OnePieceNation (talk) 20:39, August 3, 2013 (UTC) : My answer for this is kindergarten, it feels very rude how you threat people with legit information so bad. I feel very offended. I have saw your status here in this wiki I respect that, but you indiscremenately delete a lot of facts that I shared back with the manga and with proper cites. My gosh. I feel bullied. I know I don't regularly visit but I shouldnt be treated this way also for the other future people who wanna help this wiki, this kind of behavior will discourage them to add legit information making this wiki not credible. : So you were looking for direct answers you got them in the manga - the main source - and you choose to ignore them. You choose to discredit them. I included them along with a cite and you choose to delete them, in wikia standards they are proper information reliably check with sources - I have read the Policies this wiki has and it is lacking however if you go to the general rule the one you study in school, I have did all precautions. So what else do you want a kanji count? perhaps? So you wanted all manga artist to describe '''the '''gender via symbols. Youre the one who is misleading people here. I dont wanna offend but Chimera Ant Arc is already finish. If you are still blindedly '''waiting for your '''specualtions/opinions/theory to come true then Good luck. Waiting for that but please dont Hide the fact that, facts presented should be in the main article. Please dont delete them for they are legit they came from the manga, they have been supported by the databook with maching Togashi speech in the end. Please stop this. This kind of reasoning from you will make Kurapika article discredit he is male because in the databook and manga he dont have that sex symbol as well as all the other mind traps in the future eg'' Kalluto, Alluka'' who else? Also this also applies, coz you discredit the use of Japanese pronouns to descibe if he is a she or he. Then Machi was wrong when she describe Kalluto a he? Thats manga reference '''right? what about the the earliest chapters the tour guide? its a credible manga chapter, what about also the info given by Illumi and Milluki (for the Alluka consent)? And finally the databook. That is '''discrediting overwhelming information over all. I feel so sad for this wiki. : Then there is also your point about assistants, are you listening to yourself? Even the Sailor Moon experts know the Togashi dont have assistants (except when his brother help him during the YYH days, i think he still help him today and his wife assisting him occassionaly). : Ok I see you have issues with databooks but databooks are in fact a summary, a guide that Togashi created . Yes on my first post I already consent to "databooks update" thingy. The info that a future databook might add. You are forgetting yourself one fact databook is cite from the manga. Thats all for now. And I am please to tell you that i recorded all our conversations. Whoever you are. : Fine discredit the manga.Discredit Togashi. Again good luck, I was here to help to ease the confusion surrounding the controversy but what you all have as a back was only speculations/theories/opinions. Yes opinions are fine but those kind of things shouldnt reach the main aticle unless confirmed. Riniloves (talk) 20:37, August 4, 2013 (UTC) All this just for the gender of a dead character geez, The Databook evidence calling him a he is a solid fact but is that the same Databook that mentioned Maha Zoldyck as Zeno's father ? MrGenial11 (talk) 21:24, August 4, 2013 (UTC) : But I supplied the manga pages the main source the guy above me before you is completely in denial. i just use the databook as further back up so what is your opinion awaiting fro all hxh charcters to be branded with a sex symbol? Riniloves (talk) 21:40, August 4, 2013 (UTC) My new thoughts: in reply to the sex symbol thing that this guy is waiting. I have read the Mukuro thing, but one thing you forgot about Mukuro is Togashi has shown her body as confirmation. Which I deliberately did to Pitou as well back by page a cite from the manga. All I see now is constant denial here. Which is very childish.Riniloves (talk) 21:32, August 4, 2013 (UTC) @riniloves first off let me start by saying, that all I do is what I feel is best for the wikia, Off course everyone can always and many times will disagree with me and then we discuss things and eventually we work it out with no hard feelings left behind. I was not trying to bully you, at all, I hate bully and I am sorry to make you feel that way, that was not my intention. Your right I shouldn't have removed the cites that was dumb off me. (it actually was an oversight I inteded to put them back, but forgot to thanks to leaving in a hurry to go to dinner apppointment). I did not chose to discredit them, I think they are insufficient evidence to determine gender and I would rather see a gender symbol confirming her/his gender. I am (probably a bit too much) an information purist, I want to hear or see facts from the horse's mouth. This might be a bit of a flaw of mine. Databooks 9 out of 10 times are made by asisstents and not by the author itself, as far as I know every mangaka who sells decently enough is required to take several assistents aboard and I can't imagine that someone as best selling as Togashi doesn't have any, where do you get that information from?????. OnePieceNation (talk) 09:00, August 5, 2013 (UTC) : Uhmmm, I am also sorry if I had offended a bit. Now back to discussion..... : One of the oldest websites from Japan since 1998 has posted mostly updates and concerns regarding Togashi, they have a habbit of putting down the magic words everyday life thingy concerns of Togashi whenever he is gonna do hiatuses (this is mostly the tidbits he shared in WSJ before - I will post a very old scan for you a sample scan however dont expect I can still dig the old ones from the archives). :(Bad news : most of the images on the site are already 404 broken, I actually hate the scan I find -_- ....) : Trans: “I started Dragon Quest IX. I am trying to decide if I should continue playing as my character or restart and change its class and hair.” : In Japan it is already a norm or since the YYH days that Togashi dont have assistants and only trust a few people. One his brother (Togashi Hideaki) , then currently his wife (Naoko Takeuchi). I think the wikipedia page exported from the original one is here already.('' If I cant find the WSJ scan of him talking about his assistants (wife and brother), I'm sorry coz they are probably very old.....) Ok I find out in mangaupdates this was their source . : So the databook is all I can say pure Togashi pure B*, pure lazyness. I understand how you feel about the lackness of the 2004 databook but that was Togashi's doing. Crediting the Databook to an unknown assistant (w/c didnt actually exist) will be misleading. BTW we still got the manga as main source with or without the databook, we can still confirm from the manga .Riniloves (talk) 20:07, August 5, 2013 (UTC) : Other pages like Kikyo Zoldyck use the databook as a source of information. HazeShot (talk) 05:47, August 8, 2013 (UTC) the history of this article suggest : based on this page it is clearly shown that people post wihtout giving substantial evidence to support their claim. 3 support evidence has already been pointed 1) '''2 in the manga' 2) and from the databook and also additional images from the raw tankobon that can be bought in an online store near your liking... First the databook shows a valid description coming from Togashi himself in a form of a statement. Second the character from the manga already addresses himself in a formal way, "boku" which is regularly used in Japan by male person. The talkpage already informed how such word can be used in informal and formal ''examples. Third another credible information was '''taken away' and as such should be included to inform readers (Togashi's depiction of Pitou in a physical form - manga). As we are talking absolute points from the manga I suggest that please, any moderator, or editor who cannot accept this abosulute facts stop right now. The purpose of the talkpage (even though I am not a regular editor) is not to debate but to present actual evidence the wiki can use for its good. Otherwise this is the only page in the net trying to manipulate information, information that cannot be seen in the manga, information that is an opinion and also subject to wishful thinking. For example revisions such as: The only concrete evidence we have pointing either way appears in the official databook "Hunter x Hunter Character and Word Data Book." In it, Neferpitou is referred to using the pronoun "彼” (kare) which is usually translated to “he.” [1] It should be noted, however, that this data book was released in June 2004, less than a year after Pitou’s first appearance in the chapters. [2] So whether or not it should be considered canon is debatable. When speaking, Pitou uses the pronoun “boku,” (translated to “I” in English) which is used by both boys and girls in Japan. In chapter 274 Pitou is described like that of a "mother" protecting a child.[3] From all this, it should be assumed that Pitou does not have a specific or “confirmed” gender. '''Although for the purposes of this article, it seems easiesr to use the pronoun “he” when referring to Pitou, considering that “he” has historically been used as '''gender neutral language in English. Just keep in mind that it’s being used in the gender neutral sense. Latest revision as of 00:36, October 13, 2013 As pointed out in bold letters that editor of the said selection has undoubtedly: 1) created a new way of using "boku" (male for I) on his own terms or creating a dictionary for his own (?). In such case no Japanese educational module has ever reffered boku to be used in that way. Proper used of Boku: Boku (僕) is what you could think of as the “soft-masculine” I-word. It literally means “manservant” so when you use it there is a sense that you are humbling yourself before the speaker. Although in some informal occasions Boku is been used by female usually with tomboyish tone, not to be confused the formal word used in Japanese modules is "Atashi" (female for I) It has a kind of “cute” nuance to it. Because kanji are generally seen as masculine, this word has no kanji form. It is written in either hiragana or katakana. 2) another point is the debate he thinks about the databook and its released date. Pls keep in mind that Manga Chapters are pre-planned (whether the author is planning something for future events and as such) and are all subject to be edited before being sold in the public. Before such publication of manga or databook has been released every author in a publishing company may have need his work to be reviewed. 3) and the important information was taken away, being published 2 times in a magazine and a tankobon format. There is no such change in this info. The Gender Confusion header in detail has taken away an important information regarding Pitous physical form which was drawn by Togashi in the manga. Pitou talkpage scanlatedwsj ch267.jpg|scanlated wsj ch 267 HUNTER_25_142.jpg|actual raw manga in tankobon format. as such information Neferpitou being male is already accepted in Japan has substantial evidences to begin with and also the people behind this talkpage has already back it up with credible sources coming from the main source the manga itself. By all means wikia standard regulations has already been followed. However when comparing manga and anime sources the outcome might have been different. Conclusion either this wiki is trying to make readers confuse or creating its own fan fiction. 18:52, October 14, 2013 (UTC) Issue with "Gender Confusion" section Just wanted to point a couple things out after lurking. In order: *"Pitou is shown naked with a flat chest" and accompanying picture should probably be removed. The panel is clearly not accurate to Pitou's body, as the legs are entirely different from every other appearance of the character. It's faulty evidence. *"In the manga, Neferpitou's chest is totally flat" is not entirely true. There are multiple instances of a bust, most notably in chapter 304, as well as a few others in earlier chapters (e.g. 295, 300). Better wording for this sentence would be "usually flat". The cover artwork for volume 28 also suggests breasts with the shading but this isn't as clear. *"It is possible that Neferpitou's gender in the manga differs from the anime" is a useless sentence because Madhouse did not take a stance on Pitou's gender, and the character designer's arbitrary decisions don't reflect anything from the narrative. I think it might also be worth pointing out Pitou's insanely wide hips (and low waist-to-hip ratio), which is a female secondary sex characteristic. If chest size is worth mentioning, this should be too. I'm not trying to start a fruitless gender argument, this page has had enough, but it'd be better if the page listed the actual facts instead of half-truths and conjecture. Mountaintimber (talk) 09:12, October 6, 2014 (UTC) Well it's been a week, unless anyone has an objection I think I'll get around to implementing the second point I listed above to the page soon (I'll leave the first and third out of this for now, I wouldn't want to remove something from the page without a discussion first). Mountaintimber (talk) 20:47, October 13, 2014 (UTC)